ORG-tech-vols IRC meeting log 2014 01 18

A partial chat-log from our in-real-life meet-up at Mozilla in London on 18 January 2014

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[13:04] <jimkillock> We're taking a short pause and will start in earnest in 5 minutes (13:10)
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[13:12] <withoutfire> Jim is just saying 'hi' and asking for people to also say 'hi'
[13:12] <withoutfire> People saying hi
[13:12] <withoutfire> Alec Muffet
[13:12] <withoutfire> Wendy Grossman
[13:12] <withoutfire> Lee McGuire
[13:12] <withoutfire> Bernard
[13:13] <withoutfire> James
[13:13] <withoutfire> Marielle
[13:13] <withoutfire> Simon
[13:13] <withoutfire> Gareth
[13:13] <withoutfire> Ewan
[13:13] <withoutfire> Michael
[13:13] <withoutfire> Ian
[13:14] <withoutfire> John
[13:14] <withoutfire> Andrew
[13:14] <withoutfire> Alex
[13:14] <withoutfire> John
[13:14] <withoutfire> Joe
[13:15] <withoutfire> Alex
[13:15] <withoutfire> Daniel
[13:15] <withoutfire> Vic
[13:15] <withoutfire> Auter
[13:15] <withoutfire> Fabio
[13:15] <withoutfire> Kyle
[13:15] <withoutfire> And me (John Elliott)
[13:16] <withoutfire> Jim's explaining the background to the project
[13:17] <withoutfire> There have been concerns about children accessing porn, self-harm etc
[13:17] <withoutfire> A number of campaigners convinced mobile operators that they had a duty to filter this
[13:17] <withoutfire> and also providers of 'public networks'
[13:18] <withoutfire> This has been a concern for ORG for a while
[13:18] <Korikisulda> Not government legislated, only regulated on a voluntary basis
[13:18] <withoutfire> This isn't regulated by government - all voluntary
[13:18] <withoutfire> (sorry slow typing)
[13:18] <withoutfire> Filtering is mostly by blacklist
[13:19] <withoutfire> technically DNS or DPI
[13:19] <withoutfire> Some feedback given to the user
[13:19] <Korikisulda> Moving to filtering mistakes
[13:19] <withoutfire> Mistakes we've seen
[13:19] <Korikisulda> Unnnecessary categories, filtering too broad
[13:20] <Korikisulda> Eg alcohol. Children cannot drink over internet, allegedly
[13:20] <withoutfire> alcohol, tobacco
[13:20] <Korikisulda> Blogs, forums filtered without clear reason
[13:21] <withoutfire> "because pedophiles may be lurking"
[13:21] <Korikisulda> Misclassification now
[13:21] <withoutfire> such as scunthorpe
[13:22] <Korikisulda> Wrong people get filtering
[13:22] <withoutfire> and now with fixed-line everyone in the house gets filtered
[13:22] <Korikisulda> Ie all people in house, not just children, who are the target
[13:22] <Korikisulda> Mobile phone companies often block by default
[13:23] <Korikisulda> New ISP services include default-on filtering at behest of David Cameron
[13:23] <withoutfire> And now the government has extended this to fixed line, pre-opt-in filtering
[13:23] <withoutfire> (cameron and Claire Perry)
[13:24] <Korikisulda> Categories preselected by ISP may not be necessary
[13:24] <withoutfire> Gov Encourage pre-ticking of filtering categories by the ISPs
[13:24] <withoutfire> Now onto other blocking
[13:24] <Korikisulda> Two other kinds of filtering
[13:24] <withoutfire> 1. The Internet Watch Foundation (IWF)
[13:24] <Korikisulda> IWF, has often blocked incorrectly by IP
[13:24] <Korikisulda> Example being Wikipedia
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[13:25] <withoutfire> (for one album cover)
[13:25] <withoutfire> IWF creates over-blocking
[13:26] <Korikisulda> Copyright filtering is the other kind of filtering
[13:26] <withoutfire> 2. Copyright filtering
[13:26] <withoutfire> Via court order
[13:26] <Korikisulda> Is implemented as a result of court orders
[13:26] <Korikisulda> ISPs cannot correct mistakes as they are legally binding
[13:26] <RevK> hi
[13:27] <Korikisulda> The blocked URLs are in practice secret
[13:27] <withoutfire> and the BPI supplies the lists to the IPS when the content moves domain
[13:27] <Korikisulda> Hello
[13:27] <withoutfire> Hi
[13:27] <Korikisulda> Hard for user to deal with mistakes they spot
[13:27] <Korikisulda> Reiterating that ISPs cannot correct errors
[13:28] <Korikisulda> The BPI (or any other institution getting court order) need to correct it
[13:28] <Korikisulda> These types of filtering are not the focus of this project
[13:28] <Korikisulda> (IWF/copyright)
[13:28] <RevK> The BPI seem to have no liability for mistakes, which seems a concern to me
[13:28] <Korikisulda> 'Voluntary' filtering is the focus
[13:29] <Korikisulda> Problems:
[13:29] <Korikisulda> Sign ups can be misleading
[13:29] <RevK> Thankfully A&A have never had an order to block on copyright, and if we did it would most likely be expensive as we have no blocking in place at present.
[13:29] <withoutfire> (But ORG has another initiative to expose the copyright blocks issued by the courts)
[13:29] <Korikisulda> Mobile is opt out filtering, and often difficult to remove
[13:29] <Korikisulda> Automated identification of sites
[13:29] <Korikisulda> Complaints are dealt with badly
[13:29] <RevK> I am hearing from firends and relatives of people already feeling too embarassed to ask for filtering to be removed
[13:29] <Korikisulda> No pocedurest to check if you are a website owner who needs to find out if they are blocked
[13:30] <Korikisulda> Proliferation of networks with blocking makes checking extremely hard
[13:30] <Korikisulda> (Those are the points on the slide)
[13:30] <RevK> One blogger has called in to question the availability of "mere conduit" to ISPs if ISPs select or change what is transmitted. If valid, this could mean filtering ISPs losing mere conduit status
[13:30] <Korikisulda> Starbucks given as example, website owners cannot practically check for themselves if they filter their site
[13:30] <RevK> I am hoping this channel is working both ways ☺
[13:31] <Korikisulda> Sort of
[13:31] <RevK> ☺
[13:31] <RevK> Ta
[13:31] <Korikisulda> We're just relaying what Jim is saying
[13:31] <Korikisulda> Campaign objectives
[13:31] <Korikisulda> Parents need to know that this is not a cure-all
[13:31] <withoutfire> (Jim asked for questions / feedback at the end)
[13:31] <Korikisulda> We need to show that filtering is dangerous and restrictive
[13:32] <Korikisulda> assumed to be unqualified good, This is not the case, it is a mixed bag
[13:32] <Korikisulda> Tools are being given to parents that could damage their welfare
[13:32] <Korikisulda> Examples being in relation to sex, sexuality, darwin
[13:33] <Korikisulda> In some cases, filtering may be appropriate
[13:33] <Korikisulda> But is a choice that should be avoided and limited as much as possible
[13:33] <Korikisulda> Project objectives
[13:34] <Korikisulda> Collect evidence of problems
[13:34] <Korikisulda> Currently, ORG is only doing this manually
[13:34] <Korikisulda> through blocked.org.uk
[13:34] <Korikisulda> We need to understand filtering better
[13:34] <Korikisulda> Who are the bad actors, and where do they fail most often?
[13:35] <Korikisulda> We want errors to be corrected for users and website owners
[13:35] <Korikisulda> Could be seen as putting lipstick on pigf
[13:35] <Korikisulda> enhancing bad situation
[13:35] <RevK> 13:35 < Korikisulda> Could be seen as putting lipstick on pigf: I suspect there are web sites with such images.
[13:35] <Korikisulda> But it is important to ensure that access to information
[13:35] <Korikisulda> Almost certainly
[13:35] <withoutfire> And help children enforce their rights
[13:35] <withoutfire> Rule 34
[13:35] <Korikisulda> We need to show filtering as something seriously flawed, and not a panacea (which I cannot spell)
[13:36] <withoutfire> Jim finished
[13:36] <Korikisulda> Thank god ^.^ I can't type that fast
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[13:36] <RevK> Sounds good
[13:36] <Korikisulda> He's accepting questions now
[13:36] <Korikisulda> Question being answered
[13:36] <Korikisulda> ISPs filtered under threat of legislation
[13:36] <withoutfire> q: Did ISPs do this under threat of legislation?
[13:36] == mvolz [~marielle@207.218.72.66] has joined #orgtechvols
[13:36] <withoutfire> a: Yes
[13:37] <Korikisulda> Asking if there should be a 'whitelist'
[13:37] <Korikisulda> Eg samaritans, childline
[13:37] <withoutfire> a: Jim agrees
[13:37] <Korikisulda> That is identified as secondary goal
[13:37] <Korikisulda> Why are the questions so long?
[13:37] <withoutfire> feedback that ISPs don't really want this either
[13:38] <Korikisulda> And in relation to sign up mechanisms
[13:38] <RevK> As an ISP - we do not want to be involved in any moral judgement of what people do.
[13:38] <RevK> Mere conduit is not just a matter of protection, but a principle. Just like electric companies do not care what you do with the power, etc.
[13:38] <Korikisulda> Indeed
[13:38] <RevK> It is important for the development of working technology that it is not our problem!
[13:39] <RevK> Taht does not preclude people developing and sellign to parents systems to allow them to manage their connections at home, if they like.
[13:39] <RevK> But that does not have to be ISPs
[13:39] <Korikisulda> Terms 'parental control' used, this is identified as positive thing
[13:39] <withoutfire> Jim comments that BT's active choice screen is biased to opt-in (because claire perry liked the design)
[13:39] <Korikisulda> Although sign-ups are misleading
[13:39] <Korikisulda> (That got a laugh)
[13:39] <Korikisulda> In theory aimed at age, in practice not
[13:40] <RevK> I am also keen that whatever happens it remains legal for someone to offer the option of a clean internet connection so people always have that choice at least
[13:40] <RevK> Where "clean" here, means un-tampered-with
[13:40] <withoutfire> comments about filtering in public places
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[13:40] <GarethL> revk; indeed.
[13:41] <RevK> We do not search people entering public places to check they do not have a porn magazine in their bag.
[13:41] <Korikisulda> Talking about mobile network age verification
[13:41] <RevK> We may frown on, or even have laws against, openly displaying its content in public
[13:41] <Korikisulda> Which is ineffective
[13:41] <withoutfire> and how to turn it off (50p payments, go to the store etc)
[13:41] <Korikisulda> Credit cards are quite common as a method
[13:41] <RevK> We do not bad people calling a phone sex chat line from a mobile in a public place.
[13:42] <RevK> At the network level;
[13:42] <Korikisulda> "Maybe the campaign should mention the censorship"
[13:42] <Korikisulda> Or rather, try to get it expressed as such
[13:42] <withoutfire> Q; Should we frame this as censorship
[13:42] <withoutfire> A: yes
[13:43] <Korikisulda> Question about media portrayal
[13:43] <RevK> The big thing for me is that censorship is bad as it is the start of a slipperly slope. Defending "no censorship" is way easier than arguing about the level of censorship. We know censorship removes free speech and freedom of press and all sorts in the long rung.
[13:43] <withoutfire> comment: The media categorises this as 'porn blocking' - it isn't
[13:43] <RevK> run
[13:43] <Korikisulda> and how we need to counter 'porn-filtering' argument
[13:43] <Korikisulda> As it covers more than porn
[13:44] <Korikisulda> Being framed as 'opt-in' for pornography
[13:44] <withoutfire> Any questions from IRC before we move on?
[13:44] <Korikisulda> ^
[13:44] <RevK> I definitely feel it is wrong to label it "opt-in to porn"
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[13:45] <RevK> This is already causing people embarassment - even when they want unfiltered to get to non-porn sites that are mistakenly blocked
[13:45] <Korikisulda> Question broadly asking about how it will be implemented
[13:45] <withoutfire> Jim explaining that the service will be useful to website owners to check the status of their own webiste
[13:46] <Korikisulda> Censorship interrupting free expression and business
[13:46] <RevK> As mentioned, A&A are talking about hosting some kit on various ISP lines for ORG.
[13:46] <Korikisulda> Liability should be taken
[13:46] <withoutfire> And the liability for this should rest with the ISPs
[13:46] <Korikisulda> This project allows us to hold them to account
[13:47] <RevK> I find it appauling that if an ISP offeres to block porn, then blocks my "non-porn" web site, that I have no legal recourse or compensation.
[13:47] <Korikisulda> O2 provided website checker
[13:47] <Korikisulda> They removed it.
[13:47] <withoutfire> Even if the ISPs offered a 'URL checker' then ORG would still need to provide an independent system
[13:47] <withoutfire> O2's removed because of the PR damage
[13:47] <Korikisulda> Question about possibility for suing for damages as a result of filtering
[13:48] <Korikisulda> Problem is that for most websites, they may not be able to make a case for monetary damages
[13:48] <withoutfire> There are 2 legal routes, monetary damage easy for 'big companies' to fix, not so easy for small companies
[13:48] <Korikisulda> The damage is in regards to free expression and small businesses
[13:48] <withoutfire> and then also Article 10 (19) issues
[13:49] <Korikisulda> That's the end of Jim's talk
[13:49] <mvolz> Info about 02 pulling url filter: https://www.openrightsgroup.org/blog/2013/o2-pulls-blocked-url-checker-as-wave-of-new-customers-activate-their-phones
[13:49] <Korikisulda> Richard King is taking over
[13:49] <withoutfire> Now Richard King is speaking
[13:49] <mvolz> checker*
[13:49] <Korikisulda> Going back to objectives of project
[13:50] <arashiyama> Porn filtering is a very emotive argument, and as has been seen the proponents are happy to clamber to the moral high ground and the implicit accusation made to the anti-censorship mob is that we are a gang of perverts. What we know is 1) the censorship option doesn't actually work and 2) it is a thin end of the wedge towards wider "undesirable" content (from the view of the censoring authority).
[13:50] <arashiyama> One of the reasons that censorship of lawful adult content doesn't work is frankly, the wild hormone desires of teenagers will outstrip any technological controls :)
[13:50] <Korikisulda> Richard is saying we should evaluate each objective separately
[13:51] <withoutfire> Now splitting into 5 groups for to discuss each goal
[13:51] <Korikisulda> We are being split into groups to achieve this
[13:51] <Korikisulda> Feels like school...
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[13:51] <withoutfire> :-)
[13:52] <arashiyama> Sorry not to make it in person, got my travel plans messed with by South West Trains
[13:52] <Korikisulda> Sorry to hear that
[13:52] <RevK> I almost wish I had come along
[13:52] <withoutfire> only almost?
[13:53] <RevK> I am printing a wooden dalek at the moment, which is a feeble excuse, as actually I had forgotten.
[13:53] <Korikisulda> Come on, it's awesome!
[13:53] <bluboxthief> People are being broken into groups following these general topics:
[13:53] <Korikisulda> Hard to convey that over IRC
[13:53] <mvolz> EXTERMINATE CENSORSHIP
[13:53] <RevK> I am over an hour away by train.
[13:53] <Korikisulda> Same.
[13:53] <RevK> thanks for trying Korikisulda
[13:53] <arashiyama> RevK: ditto.
[13:53] <Korikisulda> I still came ;)
[13:53] <bluboxthief> 1. Collect evidence of problems - expand blocked.org.uk
[13:54] <bluboxthief> 2. Understand filtering better - who are the bad actors, where do they fail most often
[13:54] <arashiyama> Could we collect evidence by doing a walkthough of .co.uk, .com, .org, etc?
[13:54] <bluboxthief> 3. Get errors corrected for website users and owners
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[13:55] <bluboxthief> 4. Provide means for children to enforce their rights when the can't switch filtering off themselves
[13:55] <RevK> How can we "correct" some of the public attitude to this whole thing - to make people realise that censorship is a bad thing in the first place? Without invoking Godwin.
[13:55] <bluboxthief> 5. Allow ORG more widely to show filtering as damaging and a comedy of errors.
[13:55] <RevK> For point 4 - there are USB stick images of TOR browsers you can now buy that "just work".
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[13:55] <RevK> I am well up for helping with "5"
[13:57] <jimkillock> Hi Remote people, Richard here. We are just shuffling between rooms. Jim and some others are going to run IRC liaison
[13:57] <arashiyama> RevK: I think the difficulty for the public relations argument is that the proponents are led by skilled politicians who are well versed in media management. Its very easy to make an emotive argument around "protecting the children" and "if you are against us, you are a corrupter of children.
[13:57] <RevK> arashiyama: that is unfortunate but probably true.
[13:57] <alecmuffett> I would be up for mentioning if not getting sponsorship from non-filtering ISP s
[13:58] <RevK> We have yet to get any flak on this, i.e. "why are you supporting paedophiles?" and that sort of thing...
[13:58] <RevK> Tahnkfully.
[13:59] <arashiyama> Its a hard argument to make. Given British prudery then there is a hard differentiation between legal "adult content" and material which is determined illegal and indecent.
[13:59] <bluboxthief> For the record, I asked o2 UK when will they be reinstating their URL censorship checker service, there answer was:
[13:59] <bluboxthief> https://twitter.com/bernardtyers/ We're updating it to offer more transparency and help customers understand it better - We're working to bring it back ASAP.
[14:00] <bluboxthief> https://twitter.com/O2/status/424540558091382784
[14:00] <arashiyama> bluboxthief: cool.
[14:00] <RevK> cool
[14:00] <bluboxthief> Which means "go away and don't ask again".
[14:00] <arashiyama> yup.
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[14:00] <arashiyama> I also think that the problem is that some of their customers understand it all too well :)
[14:00] <RevK> Yes, but even illegal stuff we should not filter. In my previous analogy, there are lots of illegal things you can do with electricity but the electric companies stay out of it
[14:01] <RevK> And the argument of "well, they have no way to do it, ISPs do" is bullshit as we know that anything we do is actually ineffective against anyone even vaguely determined
[14:01] <arashiyama> RevK: I agree. For the record, I use openDNS at home to stop my teenage son going too mad, however a google search for "teen nude" still yields results which would titillate a teenager.
[14:02] <RevK> Power companies could probably profile people that run hyroponics for weed if they tried, for example.
[14:02] <arashiyama> BTW - it didnt work. My son promptly hopped on the (unpassworded) wifi of the next door neighbout.
[14:02] <jimkillock> Is everyone clear about rooms and what is happening?
[14:02] <RevK> We have just added an option to allow our customers to select default DNS servers for PPP and pre-programmed routers so that people that want to can select thins like openDNS. Their choice, their kit, their router
[14:02] <jimkillock> We will set up separate IRCs
[14:02] <arashiyama> jimkillock: OK
[14:03] <RevK> arashiyama: ah, of course, one of the many ways - expecting openDNS to block any deliberate access to porn will not work - what it is good for is 5 year olds
[14:03] <jimkillock> so #blocked1collectevidence
[14:03] <arashiyama> RevK: indeed. I seem to remember us having a conversation about this on a train a few years back :)
[14:03] <jimkillock> #blocked5showfileringisdamaging
[14:03] <RevK> Ha, I am terrible with names at the best of times.
[14:04] <arashiyama> but basically no blocking will ever be strong enough to overcome the teenage desire to see naked flesh!
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[14:05] <ajb> Okay, I'm going to try and transcript the 'show filtering as damaging discussion'
[14:07] <ajb> Idea 1: watching out for web sites of political web sites, MP's web sites getting blocked.
[14:08] <RevK> Did some MPs site not get hacked to show porn once?
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[14:08] <arashiyama> yep, and she accused Paul Staines of hacking her which was entertaining.
[14:09] <ajb> We think that was claire perry
[14:09] <arashiyama> It was, I had fun blogging that
[14:09] <jimkillock> RevK do you ant to join a group or Skype in?
[14:09] <jimkillock> Anyone else want to Skype in?
[14:09] <arashiyama> yep
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[14:10] <RevK> Err, I do not have Skype, I use real VoIP normally. I am not good on conference calls ☺
[14:10] <RevK> I'll try and make sure I attend next time, sorry
[14:10] <arashiyama> ditto
[14:10] <withoutfire> Your skills would be great here!
[14:10] <RevK> I need a secretary
[14:11] <RevK> On a serious note, even though not actually my secretary, if you need me at anything, do chase Alex Bloor...
[14:11] <RevK> He's good at reminding me!
[14:11] <ajb> Now talking about having some kind of place on blocked.org.uk for people to submit their stories.
[14:12] <arashiyama> RevK: http://www.lacunae.org/more-christmas-porn-for-your-delight
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[14:13] <ajb> anyone wants to skype into the 'show filtering as damaging discussion', my skype id is 'tytila'
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[14:17] <withoutfire> Sitting in #blocked2UndersandingFilteringBetter
[14:18] <andy-at-org> if anybody would like to listen in on the technicalities of blocked URL collection I'm on skype as sublimino
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[14:18] <RevK> ajb: at risk of invoking Godwin, is there not a lot of history on censoring the media before the last world war? Or am I forgetting my history?
[14:18] <RevK> Maybe some old posters can be adapted
[14:20] <alecmuffett> Works for me
[14:21] <ajb> revk: okay, we wrote that down, thanks.
[14:21] <arashiyama> https://secure.flickr.com/search/?q=censorship has some useful graphics
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[14:24] <Korikisulda> Possibility of ISPs providing API for determining blocked websites
[14:24] <Korikisulda> And discussing liability again
[14:24] <ajb> now talking about how to challenge myths about the filter
[14:24] <RevK> I am happy to host the kit that allows sites to be checked.
[14:25] <RevK> As long as we are not selecting the sites that are checked, we have mere conduit protection regarding any content conveyed.
[14:25] <RevK> So I am not particularly worried about liability for sites we supposedly access.
[14:25] <RevK> Also, I am sure the system would be unlikely to fetch images anyway
[14:28] <ajb> Myths: 1: just blocks porn 2: just like the 9 o'clock watershed, only getting big companies to clean up their act , 3?
[14:29] <RevK> myths? actually blocks anything that someone wants to get to?
[14:29] <RevK> Even an *OFCOM* report said something liek 18% of kids know how to bypass the filters already!
[14:29] <RevK> I think that is more than the parents that do
[14:30] <ajb> Ruth says: need to make blocked.org "young people friendly"
[14:30] <arashiyama> true RevK. I put in OpenDNS on my zen ADSL, and my 15yold bypassed it
[14:30] <RevK> Ah, good point...
[14:30] <RevK> A 15 year old would.
[14:30] <ajb> revk: good point
[14:31] <RevK> So w have government (ish) stats saying the blocks don't actually work. That has to be useful
[14:31] <RevK> If OFCOM count as such
[14:32] <RevK> If the only reason to do this is to stop accidental exposure to 5 year olds, then just education on openDNS would do the trick. Even we, as a non blocking ISP, have no issue with customers using openDNS and will help them set it up.
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[14:35] <ajb> Ruth suggest making a twitter hashtag for blocked sites; need to think of a catchy one...
[14:36] <RevK> #ukcensored
[14:36] <ajb> "Everyday Censorship" ?
[14:38] <arashiyama> I have no problem with a parent wanting to stop their children accessing stuff that they believe is bad for them. I think that's the judgement call of a parent. What I think the problem is when the State decide they want to block material that is legal under UK law. Then various "special interests" weigh in, to the point where because one vocal MP doesn't like (for example) order-order.com, that site is blocked as "subversive"
[14:38] <vasilis> Hi, could someone summarize the talk?
[14:38] <arashiyama> Webinar just dropped.
[14:39] <ajb> Okay, people are now being rounded up into the main room again. We decided our main idea was having a way for people to submit stories of blocking.
[14:40] <arashiyama> Can jimkillock (or someone) start the webinar again?
[14:42] <jimkillock> When we come back
[14:42] <jimkillock> Do you use mumble
[14:43] <arashiyama> can do quite happily
[14:44] == ajb [~chatzilla@207.218.72.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
[14:47] <arashiyama> Do we have access to the IWF blocklist, which as I understand it, actually contains lists of material which DOES break UK law.
[14:47] <RevK> which IWF think breaks UK law.
[14:47] <RevK> No, we don't, and rules are that you cannot look at it or distribute it, IIRC
[14:48] <arashiyama> it would be interesting to compare that with ISP implemented blocklists
[14:48] <arashiyama> RevK: v good point
[14:49] == bluboxthief [~BluBoxThi@207.218.72.66] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
[14:50] <arashiyama> I think that there is a PR beartrap to avoid around being seen as the "pro child porn" lobby. That mudpie will certainly get thrown at some point in this debate.
[14:51] <mrowebot> Yes, but the filters won't stop that. The argument for the filters began w/ protecting children from nefarious content, then it was child porn, and now it is back to protecting the children...
[14:53] <arashiyama> Ok, Mumble all set up. jimkillock - is there a mumble address?
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[14:56] <RevK> When I said I was printing a wooden dalek, I meant it, by the way. http://e.gg/157730
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[14:57] <arashiyama> CNC?
[14:59] <RevK> Makerbot Replicator 2 using colorfab woodfill fine (PLA with 30% wood fill). Strange stuff. First attempt using the woodfill.
[14:59] <RevK> Sorry, a tad off topic, I know.
[15:00] <RevK> Though we'll have copyright blocks on thingiverse.com before long, I am sure.
[15:00] <alecmuffett> Tech here has gone into a tailspin because mumble is blocked
[15:00] == wendyg_ [~chatzilla@212.25.224.12] has joined #orgtechvols
[15:00] <RevK> Seriously, your internet connection there is filtered causing technical issues - who'd have thought?
[15:01] == withoutfire [~withoutfi@207.218.72.66] has joined #orgtechvols
[15:01] <RevK> Can I tweet that?
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[15:01] <withoutfire> About to re-start
[15:01] <RevK> What is mumble anyway - conferencing?
[15:02] == jimkillock changed the topic of #orgtechvols to: 1. Go to JoinGoToMeeting.com 2. Enter this meeting ID: 207-514-301
[15:02] <jimkillock> New meeting details!
[15:02] <jimkillock> 1. Go to JoinGoToMeeting.com 2. Enter this meeting ID: 207-514-301
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[15:03] == wendyg_ has changed nick to wendyg
[15:03] <RevK> Next time have a meeting where we are doing the Internet!
[15:03] <jimkillock> mumble is teleconf
[15:04] <RevK> gotcha
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[15:06] <withoutfire> feedback from groups
[15:07] <Korikisulda> 'How do we show filtering as damaging' is first
[15:07] <Korikisulda> Discussing possibility of using real life stories of businesses affected by filtering
[15:07] <withoutfire> 1. Collect stories where censorship has had a bad effect - so collect storeis as well as technology 'fact'
[15:07] <mvolz> Visitors from blocked.or.uk will be able to opt in to have their stories written up on a blog
[15:07] <withoutfire> like everyday sexism - everyday blocking
[15:08] <mvolz> to publicize the harm that censorship does
[15:08] <Korikisulda> I'll go with Hadrian's firewall
[15:08] <Korikisulda> Just like there's the great firewall of china
[15:08] <withoutfire> Also look at the economic angle, as that can affect MPs attention
[15:10] <Korikisulda> Suggestions for campaigns, videos showing the negative impacts
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[15:10] <withoutfire> Promote the blocked.org.uk site to journalists
[15:11] <Korikisulda> Statistics will be needed for journalists
[15:11] <withoutfire> Produce journalist-friendly stories based on the site - such as 'top 10'
[15:11] <Korikisulda> Final point: It must be collectable, we need statistics, timelines for blocked sites etc
[15:12] <Korikisulda> That's all from that group
[15:12] <withoutfire> Now up, group 2 "UnderstandingFilterimgBetter"
[15:13] <Korikisulda> Principle is to investigate what internet filtering providers there are
[15:13] <Korikisulda> nominem (not sure how to spell) is one of them
[15:13] <Korikisulda> We should investigate who they provide their services to
[15:14] <withoutfire> and how it works
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[15:14] <Korikisulda> We can ask ISPs who they use
[15:14] <Korikisulda> First nicely, and then in an 'other way'
[15:14] <Korikisulda> Find out how technically implemented
[15:14] <Korikisulda> Be that DNS, DPI, or other
[15:14] <withoutfire> Having the probe do the fingerprinting
[15:14] <Korikisulda> We need to determine what it looks like, with OONI-probe etc
[15:15] <withoutfire> and also look at JobServe and LinkeIn etc
[15:15] <Korikisulda> To determine who they are looking for for their filtering
[15:15] <RevK> Are any of these porn blocks stopping VPNs yet. I know they do on mobiles.
[15:15] <Korikisulda> Building a chillingeffects style website
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[15:15] <RevK> If so, a simple story is that MPs have said that they would have to turn off such blocks to access the VPNs at parliament!
[15:16] <Korikisulda> "If there are websites that are blocked that have no legal reason to be blocked, that's not right"
[15:16] <Korikisulda> That's all from that group
[15:16] <arashiyama> I did some research for a former employer to see where PIN terminal engineers were being recruited - a bit of maltego etc found some interesting results from places like getafreelancer.com and similar
[15:16] <arashiyama> could do something similar for websence
[15:16] <arashiyama> (sound quality a bit distorted)
[15:16] <wendyg> Spelling is Nominum
[15:17] <Korikisulda> Thanks
[15:17] <bluboxthief1> Sorry for the distorted sound...
[15:17] <alecmuffett> Arashi good idea
[15:17] <Korikisulda> This is the group on... The API? I can't remember the exact task
[15:17] <Korikisulda> It's the one I was in
[15:18] <bluboxthief1> arashiyama: I like maltego. Great tool.
[15:18] <Korikisulda> What sort of information do we want from the API?
[15:18] <bluboxthief1> Gotten better since the first version I used.
[15:18] <mvolz> Ability to submit URLs
[15:18] <Korikisulda> Discussed the idea of having 451 response for blocked pages that would indicate why, and at what level it was blocked
[15:18] <mvolz> to check whether they're blocked and on which providers
[15:19] <Korikisulda> Lobbying ISPs to use standardised categories for blocking
[15:19] <withoutfire> and can we correlate categories?
[15:19] <mvolz> A common API that could be used by blocked.org.uk as well as browser extensions etc.
[15:19] <Korikisulda> Dedicated probes on lines
[15:19] <Korikisulda> Raspberry pi
[15:20] <Korikisulda> Browser plugins for users to report blocking
[15:21] <mvolz> Also api could return whether the url is blocked immediately based on current info in the database (no data, 50% blocked on talk talk based on x datapoints, etc.)
[15:21] <Korikisulda> Mobile phone probes for users to volunteer their device for checking
[15:21] <Korikisulda> Storing history of ISP blocks
[15:22] <Korikisulda> So we can see if sites oscillate (spelling?) between being blocked and not
[15:22] <Korikisulda> That is all from that group
[15:23] <Korikisulda> Richard is running low on post-its
[15:23] <Korikisulda> Never mind, he's been given more
[15:24] <Korikisulda> Our API has been determined to be a priority
[15:24] <Korikisulda> Reiterating need to tell personal stories, twitter, hashtags, social media etc
[15:26] <Korikisulda> Jim being invited for ORG's position
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[15:26] <Korikisulda> Also saying that IRC questions are invited
[15:26] <bluboxthief1> Does anyone from ORG's staff have "preferences" on topics.
[15:26] <Korikisulda> Jim is saying that ORG will run its own probes
[15:26] <Korikisulda> That will cover most major networks
[15:27] <bluboxthief1> AAISP will provide ORG with fixed line ISPs access
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[15:27] <Korikisulda> Mentioning legal consequences of probes
[15:28] <Korikisulda> Jim has handed back to Richard
[15:28] <Korikisulda> Who is at the end of what he knows how to do
[15:28] <Korikisulda> (His words, not mine)